They should no longer be allowed to exempt themselves from the oversight which non-religious entities must abide by. This is no different then the very worst of false teachers in 2019. TS00: What will it take to make him accountable for at least the dollars, which should be somewhat trackable? In preparation for the milestone anniversary of 30 years, it seemed fitting to host all our campuses together for Good Friday and Easter Sunday at the Sears Centre Arena. Ive heard the voice of my Savior, WHERE TO FIND US. mostly because God doesnt need professional christians and their institution in the first place.. The Chosen is Different. Of course, we dont know; there are AFAIK no extant early post-biblical church documents from the Jewish churches. We believe that disciples of Jesus profess that He is Lord, practice His Ways, and persevere in both their profession and practice. Max, I love you. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong, I would say that the church you reference may have never had an ACTUAL elder then. Cut corners in the case of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and assorted others meant they decided it was OK to be a little wicked if a little good could come from it. Peter wrote, Shepherd the flock of God which is among you Paul said, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers The number of bishops is always plural, but the jurisdiction of these overseers is singular. One church on six campuses serving together in this purpose: to glorify God and fulfill the Great Commission! And just because there is a list of qualifications doesnt mean that men wont lie to gain access, or construct a pseudo religion to hide in. No church will fit that ideal in this fallen world. 1 Peter 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. This place needs to be shut down. We have seen God continue to change lives through the people and ministries of our church. If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. Ishy: These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things, Matt Chandler says I preach to men. He calls female believers at TVC our girls while hes ensnares them with the beauty of complementarity., NJ: Wow. Humility is required. As you think, consider the following passages of Scripture: From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders [PRESBUTEROS] of the churchTherefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers [EPISKOPOS], to shepherd [POIMEN] the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (Acts 20:17, 28), The elders [PRESBUTEROS] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder [PRESBUTEROS] and a witness of the suffering of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed; shepherd [POIMEN] the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [EPISKOPOS], not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly. (1 Peter 5:1-2). What we have is countless people cutting him some slack . Notice how you need to be part of this first hand, and not from a distance like on the world wide web for even unbelievers to see. Which almost conquered my soul. The key is to have a system where checks and balances are in place. Does that make you manly? Sad. I bring up Eastern Orthodoxy because its dogma and practices are very old. Or, in English, able to teach There is no such thing as a single pastor leader role that even exists. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. God has shown great favor and grace to Harvest Bible Chapel, allowing us to plant churches, host in thriving mens, womens events, and student gatherings, and creating ministries centering around outreach in our communities. Maybe you missed the point of her post. Our '3rd Service' is an online experience drawn from our live Weekend Gatherings. You have any lies and untrue rumors to highlight that are being spread here, out with them. Thats a smoking crater of a response. Since you supposedly know *the truth* why dont you do what I try to do with each post? Made a lot of money, enjoyed the fruits of fame that was a product of his professed following of Jesus. Not to say that we may not voluntarily partake of symbols and freely made offerings to God; but never again can any men or institutions demand that we submit to their demands or interpretations of How to be saved. this is because the powerbrokers have the mic. I dont know that there isnt a fair amount of corruption in smaller churches, but it seems to me once pastors start making huge amounts of money, it becomes more and more important to maintain or increase that above all else. Morris no longer sits on Driscolls board. And this being heard is not merely some desire for gossip or vengeance, but a desire to confront evil and protect the rest of the naive flock from being manipulated, abused and otherwise taken advantage of. Identity, faith, sexuality, and gender--come learn what God's Word says about these topics in light of our current culture. In a godly biblical hierarchy, what would flow downhill would be love and care. holy Same thing I guess. Amy Moore: There are about 4 dozen Harvest execs & elders moving on to other ministries and the corruption runs so deep theres no chance they wont be infecting every ministry they touch going forward. The teenage years are an awesome time to grow in Christ. into playing a role in a conspiracy they do not even grasp. The Didache and letters of Ignatius and Clement confirm this, as well as other writings from the early second century. Or an attempt to conceal more? James and you have lived a lifestyle for a long time of trying to prove that Jesus lied. Maybe we should have been, and still should be, picketing in front of Driscolls new church, handing out pamphlets including some of his more famous woman-degrading statements? In 2008, the church was listed by Outreach magazine as one of the 100 fastest-growing churches in America. The lawsuit also claims that beginning in 2018, a pastor at one of Harvest's campuses began working with a "disgruntled" former Harvest worker, filmmaker Dallas Jenkins, to solicit letters. However, a Calvinist fanboy and wannabe celebrity showed up spouting Piper, Driscoll and insisted on hiring a guy from Sovereign Graces mothership-CLC. It was given to the elders two months ago. Every believer has a part! Sandy: In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? I really cant come up with a legitimate reason for why these Pastors and Elders are continuing to conceal the truth while realizing that doing so will result in decades of further abuse. *whispers* Its possible it wasnt three years. You can ONLY imagine the slowly erupting chaos that ensued. Max: I suspect that even MacDonald started out with good intentions (maybe). Do you consider the primary reason for being asked to serve as an elder was that you were a strong donor since you say you did not meet Biblical qualifications for that office? Seriously, I believe 100% that the theological DNA is the problem, and that Truth was genetically modified centuries ago. Kids Night Out. http://www.globalpokerindex.com/poker-players/frederick-adams-169223/. In our common language, we use the word elder to describe one who is older than ourselves. So this notion of a pastor as single leader being completely made up well after the Bible was written, simply not biblical at all, purely cultural tradition, I think youd be safe to say that said book most certainly does not indicate that one assuming an unbiblical, made-up official office does not need to be heeded, but rather corrected, censured or even disciplined and thrown out of the church for their audacity and biblical ignorance. . TS00: That community is you all, for whom I am so grateful! Whatever ministry is going on at Harvest, is going on as a cult. So James has only paid a fraction of taxes that the rest of us little people would have had to without the luxury of the Pastor title and access to over $40M a year in donations. Its like a slow drip how the top dogs at HBC are resigning one by one! Even during Christs life the disciples were weighing out who was most important and who would take the position above all the others. Jenkins is jealous that he couldnt run the con as well as Jmac. Thank you for your insights. Any truth about MacDonald as a bad-boy preacher needs to be made public! Harvest Bible Chapel We're here to glorify God through the fulfillment of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20). This statement just doesnt sound much like what Jesus talked to the twelve about. In the history of the church, which is most seductive:money, sex, or power? Your comments often put me in mind of the older and wiser men I knew in church when I was young. The majority of the people who were questioning you were NOT anonymous (including me), and there is more factual information about HBC on Twitter than there has ever been from HBC leaders own mouths, including yours. That said, the bishops, priests, and deacons are supposed to be models of humility and servanthood. With so much at stake, it can be very tempting to cut corners for the sake of what is viewed as a larger good. Covidfrom the start of the pandemic and lockdowns, the Worship and Creative Teams busied themselves with recordings, writing coronavirus updates, and developing worship environments that would be both accessible and God-honoring in the height of the pandemic. After six months exclusively online, we returned to in person services in September 2020. Choose from among you seven men with good reputations, men of godly character and moral integrity, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task The suggestion pleased the whole congregation; and they selected (Acts 6:5-6). Wonderful, on point comment. Years ago, I decided to go forth with my name on this blog I did it to help people who have reason to suspect that their identity could cause them problems with out of control churches If yo have a problem with anonymity, take it up with me. The only reason you dont want exposure is because you dont want damage to your film career. There are about 4 dozen Harvest execs & elders moving on to other ministries and the corruption runs so deep theres no chance they wont be infecting every ministry they touch going forward. Theres no edit function so it couldnt later be deleted. That clearly does not describe James MacDonald and HBC elders who are coming forth one at a time to confess their roles in the great deception in Chicago. We now see, via ECFA, that these massive personal perks were evidently excluded from their comp review, meaning James has likely been under reporting his income to the IRS by hundreds of thousands a year. LLS, honest question in all of these elder rule setups Ive ever seen, there is no mechanism at all for pew peons to do as you note and hold elders accountable for anything. Lured by the hope of sitting someday at the right hand of The Man JMac, not Jesus. But some dopes might not think they were so funny, eh?. You have also put a few of the people fighting for the cause of God change through the ringer with some of your comments to them on twitter fb. . These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things (that will probably never happen) to keep the men coming. His LLC scheme was dreamed up because James announced that no new debt would be taken on until the $43M in debt was paid off in full. Consider the following Scriptures: For a bishop [EPISKOPOS] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money. (Titus 1:7), Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops [EPISKOPOS] and deacons (Philippians 1:1). and on the iceberg? And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. these are their personal standards. My new son-in-law is a United Methodist pastor. +++++++++++++++++++. Ishy: Probably took over where my favorite Vietnamese restaurant used to be. I dont have a huge problem with the idea of multiple leaders who put their necks on the line like the people in the early church serving others, and because theyre typically older and recognized as more kind and stable and servant-like, people are told to consider seriously what they have to say (about the best translation of the word unfortunately translated obey in HEB 13:17. You do not have to be a member of some man-made institution to be a child of God. Its amazing. Our pastor, weeping, said it was one of the greatest movies he ever saw. Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents. Church, this is good advice for all of us! If the elders are in place primarily because they are buds of the pastor (yes-men), wealthy, prominent in the community, popular in the church but do not meet the Biblical qualifications to serve in that sacred office if there is no evidence in their lives of being filled with the Holy Spirit and being above reproach then you have a Harvest Bible Chapel or Willow Creek mess waiting to happen, regardless of the size of the ministry. im proud to be human. Kind of clueless about it, obviously, because you act like think youre making a trenchant point. a human-designated term. I suppose those are the sort of preachers Jesus had in mind when He said: Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. -, I figure whenever Paul was speaking to us through Scripture, he was drawing from his personal knowledge of the Kingdom of God rather than what he thought about it. I was there (our kids went there for 2 too long years) and it was unreal what went on during and after that incident. January 19, 2016 Subscribe to Podcast What's in this session? We have versions of truth and half-truth at best in most places, allowing a theological DNA to supersede the real thing. TS00: Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. Ive read that the sweet spot in church size, that combines small enough to know the flock (and small enough that all the flock can know the leaders) and large enough to be endowed with a diverse array of gifts is around 300. * Gaga sees them as self-righteous. Harvests former CFO, Fred Adams, now runs a sketchy consulting group that helps wealthy elite church insiders set up secret LLCs to buy church buildings so that the churches can then transfer wealth to them in the form of both monthly rentals instead of building equity for the members, while also authorizing the campuses to make major improvements and expansions that cost millions, which will then belong to the LLC owners, not the flock. Narcissistic business CEOs mistreat their subordinates and the nastiness flows downhill within the enterprise. We all are that person which is why we still need Jesus daily to save us from our continuing sin patterns in our life. Chapel (Spiritual Life Conference): Dr. Jim Allman. I suspect that all of this is true, and more. Harvest Christian Academy, a private K-12 school with 650 students, was opened in Elgin . Makes me sad to think its so. Harvest Kids meet at 9:00a (Nursery-5th) + 11.00a (Nursery-3yrs). Regarding the $2m house in Inverness: Let us never forget how TED exposed the story of how MacDonald agreed to move to a smaller house in Elgin, and published the location/pictures to prove what a sacrifice he was making and secretly (via a trust, so his name wasnt on it) secured another mansion instead. This man has no shame. And you dare to point your finger at TWW participants, and courageous Dee? CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. God bless. It has reference to one who is seen as a care giver, or guardian for the church. Dallas Jenkins and Dean Butters letters are only two of six submitted to the Elders. Being close only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades. FOR WITHOUT THEM ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF THE CHURCH. Although, in a few places in Scripture he paused to advise us that he was speaking about a matter offering his opinion rather than what God was saying. But to think you are wholly appointed by God to take pot shots from the distance, not being part of the churches who you blast then Satin has really pulled the wool over your eyes. Bayloy University Medical Center, 3500 Gaston Ave., Dallas, TX 75246 [email protected] Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, Diocese of Chicago and Detroit Bishop Peter Loukianoff 4/26/2019 Community Bible Church Ed Newton and Sean Metcalf 2477 N. 1604 East San Antonio TX 78232 5/1/2018 Harvest Bible Chapel Tampa Bay Rev. ex HCA Staff: be in sin, Known for its racial and economic diversity, the congregation moved into a converted warehouse in Rolling Meadows, Illinois, in 1995. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. part of it a fear of the outside that is purposely cultivated in church environments. This also is so very true! Regarding the tragic murder of that bear, I wouldnt be too rough on JMac perhaps he was using that as a witness to draw in rough boys from the streets of Chicago. Everyone who is of the Truth, who is a friend of the Truth and belongs to the Truth, hears and listens carefully to My voice. (Jesus, John 18:37). Conversational-type sermons, contemporary worship music, come-as-you-are. ex HCA Staff: ++++++++++++++++++++. This is accomplished mainly through having only a few puppet elders who are as dirty as the head pastor, hence, the 3 out of state elders Driscoll chose. It is not elaborate but adequate for what we seek to do for Gods Kingdom. But Dallas, that is not the case here. Rescuing those who have ears to hear is the best any of us can do. Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents in the first year of the schools history during Holy Week. You worked for Us. BTW, off topic, yall, but would appreciate prayers for my 94-year-old FIL, who apparently has just days (or even hours) to live. At this point however the narrative cannot be controlled by people because God Almighty is acting now. Vertical Church Band released four albums through Essential Records: Live Worship from Vertical Church in 2012, The Rock Wont Move in 2013, Church Songs in 2015, and Frontiers in 2016with the last two albums peaking at #1 on the Christian Billboard chart. PRESBUTEROS, when translated to our English language becomes elder or presbyter. I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. Another campus grew out of the prayers and intercession of a core group in Chicagos North Shore. Harvest was known for emphasizing unapologetic preaching of the Bible, unashamed adoration of God's Son, unafraid witness to the gospel, and unceasing prayer. In fact, Driscolls board is down to him as President and director, Jimmy Evans and Randall Taylor (who I believe is an attorney). now if only you could do it without whining. in Springfield MO in late April Driscoll Will be sharing his wisdom as a highlighted speaker. I see several at work in this situation at all levels top to bottom of the organization. Apparently MacDonald had a major meltdown on the stage, yelling so loudly that his spit could be felt by those sitting in the front row of the auditorium. I think you are correct in noting this early Church writer's statements. to take stock in ones view, and have confidence in it, is personal responsibility. Abigail: of good behaviour Its nice to have a multimillionaire dad. I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys! Max responding properly (thats all I will say). self-controlled God is omnipresent and always acting, everywhere, as you find out once youre on the outside. (no Dallas, Mormons have an occult fake jesus as Lucifer's brother making them accursed per Gal 1) See Dallas own words below: These head pastors will gladly pay SM large fees in exchange for helping them become secret multi-millionaires. Posted in Theology | Tagged Alpha and Omega, Comparing Myself to Others, Dallas Jenkins, Gavin Stone, God's Sovereignty, God's Will Plan and Priorities, Harvest Bible Chapel, Vertical Church Films | 7 Comments. Exposure is because you dont want exposure is because you dont want damage to your career. Our pastor, weeping, said it was given to the elders two months ago men I in! Is Lord, practice his Ways, and more, NJ: Wow have a system where checks balances. 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