I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! God was with my parents & gracious to them in very different ways. Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. They guy went to another church in the same denomination and auditioned or whatever you call it for the head preacher job. As you might already know he recently plead guilty to one felony in a plea bargain. He is now a wonderful father and husband. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. Plainly put so-called support programs are overrated. The Bible calls drunkenness a sin. His alcoholism is one of the least of the familys concerns. She and I part theological company. Yes, there sure is. Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. He should face consequences for it. So far no response. Sproul Jr. didn't hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. The idea of publicly humiliating people who have serious problems that require medical intervention does not sit well with me. We can be His hands & feet to a hurting soul, we can listen without telling, we can confess our faults to others so they understand they are not alone, we can give anonymously to people & not tithe to a church. I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. For everybodys sake. I Theres a show about morbidly obese people on cable TV, and some of them over eat to medicate pain left over from childhood. Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. ), When an alcoholic stays sober for a length of time, with the first drink they take, theyre right back where they left off. There is usually a reason when people have strong feelings of negativity, and this issue triggers emotional responses from many of us The recidivism statistics bear this out, and the treatment programs are just as disappointing. I responded to your comment with a quote from RC Sproul, but the comment is not yet visible, probably because of the words Sproul used. Let me explain myself. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. In our former church, which I understand was similar in many ways to RC Jrs church, it involved either calling a congregational meeting (that would be to talk about the situation before taking it to excommunication) and then acting when the congregation was gathered together for worship (the cynical part of me wants to say, The more the merrier but it probably has something to do with holiness and ceremony), an elder would read out a statement and pronounce the excommunication. I have been to bars with friends and had tea and nobody cares. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. It seems like I had read he was a wife abuser? In fact, I get very nauseated from using any sort of opioids. Yes, it is helpless to watch people on a path of self-destruction. If you posted something negative about Dee or Barb at my blog as you have here, Id remove your comment, too. NOW he is a chaplain and accountant for a senior care facility. Velour wrote: Velour said: Actually, yes, several people have never mentioned treatment. Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree.. Sproultried to get this heard in theDrug Court but was unsuccessful because he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. As it turned out, my depression was more a symptom or a side effect, not the cause of my issues but no doctor I ever saw caught it. If he was working with a sponsor in a 12-step program he would be required to make a list of the people he had harmed and to make amends to them, except when do so would injure a person. we went to seminars and learned a lot about drug and alcohol abuse. 2008 - 2023 INTERESTING.COM, INC. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Movement - Prudent Today, The Homeschool Movement: Its Reconstructionist Roots and Rushdoonys Influence, Seth Dunn Tweets that a Woman Pastor is Just as Bad as a Sex Offender Who is Hired as aPastor, Christian Domestic Discipline (Wife Spanking): A Personal Story, and a Closer Look at Patterns Connected with this AbusivePractice. The majority of pastors, elders, deacons, church counselors, and church staff in general arent qualified to give counseling of any kind on any subject (even the Bible sometimes), even though they often presume they are. This website has been following RC SproulJr for years and has documented many problems with his ministry. Best to ignore the barbs. We are, after all, all Christians here, and are called to bear one anothers burdens. So whether he sobers up or not the focus needs to be on doing whatever is necessary to prevent him from scheming his way back into ministry where he will be given the opportunity of committing more spiritual abuse. I dont think so, but only God knows. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. RC2 is doing this having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Paul said in this same verse to Avoid such people.. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. Is is with a licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism? That would probably fall to the individual him or herself and/or their family. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. God help you, dear. Like Liked by 1 person. . You sure about that? The church can also play an important role, and probably has the financial resources, to get Sproul 2 into a treatment program and to come alongside his children and second wife and get them help too. Our justice system and plea deals and the pitfalls of that could be a whole topic. Al-Anon helps people take care of themselves around an alcoholic, to see clearly, so that they can make a decision that is best for their situation at the right time in their lives. They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. I am not trying to take you to task, because you are obviously passionately defending a carefully considered stance, but your mode of communication is obscuring your message. Youre wrong. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. Sounds like it would do you good. or a swindler [scams, cons] Had he qualified and successfully completed all the requirements of the Drug Court Treatment Program he could have avoided a criminal trial altogether. because when a person is educated in ethical and moral behavior, they KNOW what it is and WHY departing from it is harmful and hurtful, so they are able to grow in examining their own conscience and responding accordingly .. they are able to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and make course correction before making ship-wreck of their faith, I think solid Christian formation is far more productive and healing than the miserable anecdotes I hear about of Church discipline which seems so negative and punitive and results in public SHAMING, something that is very destructive for any person, Christian formation is education and the root of the word discipline is that one learns . Spouses are taught to take care of themselves, to not enable the problem drinker, and to let the problem drinker face the consequences of their actions. 4. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. Yes, it is helpless to watch people on a path of self-destruction. View pages/Spiritual-Sounding-Board/266400143480456?ref=hls profile on Facebook, View @defendthesheeps profile on Twitter, View soundingboards profile on Pinterest, BGBC Lawsuit Archive (Julie Annes lawsuit), 00 Guide to Navigating the BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Archive, 01 Court Dates and Documents, and Analysis of Allegations, 02A Narrative Account and Analysis: The Lawsuit, 02B Narrative Account and Analysis: Sidebar Issues, 03 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Events Timeline, 04 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Media/Blog Response Timeline, 05 Analysis/Commentary Pieces Legal, Historical, Media, Other, 06 Impact of the Case and Significance for the Future, Quotes from Readers I Dont Want to Forget, Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits and Code Words, R.C. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. To be Faire To Claire, I rather think she was denying, not creating, the correlation. He fell drunk on the floor in his home. IMO, any so called Christian who is not angry about this needs to take a good look at their own heart. (If someone already said this, apologies. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. Drunkenness is also condemned. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. I dont recall anyone saying addictions alone warranted anyone being kicked out. Not impressed. I posted the list about the multi-pronged issues that R.C. Perhaps if nothing else RC Sproul Sr. shielded and protected his son due his son having his same name and thus the sons actions tarnishing the fathers name. At least, from the description. If any are reading and know what Im talking about, please contact me. DUI/DWI is a crime. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukD8zj6ngVY. This issue has come up several times before on TWW, and I think it has been used at times to excuse bad behavior which perhaps should not have been excused under the idea that people have to be forgiven for bad behavior is there is some history of trauma in their lives. I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldnt be necessary. I can choose not to and on very rare occasions (maybe twice in five years) Ive forgotten to. I got to tell them, they were somewhat angry at me but there was a lot of emotions. For several weeks my wife continued going with my daughter while I stayed at home and grieved my loss. She and R.C. What a traumatic experience for a young teen. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. The thought makes my stomach turn, in part because it is tied to membership covenants. Serous help? Being around others in a church setting may help resolve a need for companionship, but Im not seeing how it would cure somebody of a condition that would likely need medical intervention or the attention or professionals. The church. And you disagree that being raised under this theological umbrella could cause problems? Much of the information posted is inaccurate both in substance and interpretation. @ Deb: If alcoholism is a disease, its the only one you can buy in a bottle. Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? has sent more people to churches than churches have ever sent to A.A., just sitting in a pew is a big step for some .. the physical act of coming into what in our Judeo-Christian ethic is sanctuary, a place of safety and peace, yeah, there are times in my life when just sitting there was all I could manage. Hes a lost drunkard, and a wolf in sheeps clothing on his way to hell. Divorce would go beyond that to Its the end of the road., However severe the problem may seem, most people with AUD can benefit from treatment. There is so much more to Scripture than just Matthew 18:15-17 when it comes to dealing with people with problems. I have already covered this in Point #2, that he is not qualified to serve. Come on People!!!! The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. I disagree with your lack of knowledge about addiction treatment, how we handle it in the church, and your theology. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. and me: Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). I just figured that H.A. 1. repetitive and in a rut I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. Please explain to us how her logic is flawed. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. I think where we differ is that I did not see Barbaras comment as a blanket endorsement of kicking all addicts/alcoholics out of every church. Sentenced aggressively and appropriately Sad but these christian pastors et al wont even go that far with a rapist or child molester. I am not defending excommunication in any way. She needed that love. I dont see the comparison as connecting to RC Sproul Jr., except for the coincidence that they are both alcoholics. Velour wrote: ALL FAKE NEWS. Thanks, Dee and Deb, for all you do on TWW. Please stop? Not always. Edit your search or learn more. context is key to understanding, though, dont you agree? And, yes, there is more. Blessings to you both. I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea. A different opinion here, perhaps, or a different way of looking at this. R.C. I got there, there were big huge cracks in the wall, the elevators were broken people screaming and injured and there was my father asleep right after his surgery. After he was defrocked he stayed as head pastor of St. Peter Presbyterian Church but changed his and his churchs affiliation to Doug Wilsons CREC. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. RC Sr should have called his son to repentance and to make restitution to all the families hed abused. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. I am furious at how our culture tolerates substance abuse as much as we do. Oh, excellent, Nancy2. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. My extended family has a lot of alcoholics. (LogOut/ Yes, they can be a big help but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. Velour wrote: May I suggest that we all pray for people who are in despair? I dont think you have any real awareness, Julie Anne, of the damage that Barbaras words did to people who lurk here who struggle with addiction. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. The type of fatalistic Calvinism taught by Sproul certainly had an impact on Sproul Jr. Is Sproul Jrs behavior the fruit of being so close to that teaching? Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died December 14, 2017. Both men have left a trail of shattered relationships. They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. Well,this is one way. You might like to listen to them. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) How do you realistically deal with the tragedies hes faced with those beliefs? 2. being too negative and saying nothing works (which I did not say in the first place). Having been kicked out of a church (on some trumped up charges), I can say it one of the most destructive and inhumane things that I have ever seen done to human beings. Out of our wounds flow compassion, understanding, & grace. By the very nature of the role he occupies, he likewise claims authority over what God is or is not saying to the members of the organisation. But I know people that doand I cant imagine the struggle. They see insult where none was intended, and are quick to react and hurl barbs and insults in retaliation. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; Just last week our District Attorney got brought up on 13 felony counts. Wasnt it radiology or something like that? I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. Im the former member of RC Jrs church who contacted Dee. RC Jr needs professional help and Ive already said so on the Spinderella blog. Im pretty sure this is the first time Ive ever posted on this blog. RC Jr does. To the best of my knowledge she does not have training in the subject of alcoholism. She didnt use the term excommunication. Velour, is there anything in our conversation that has triggered an old experience for you? and me: That took many months to heal. I have a hole in my skull about the size of a quarter just Bove and in front of my ear. As recovering alcoholic Steven King put it, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. We are obliged to do the right thing in intervening for OUR sakes as well as theirs: because we are human persons too and our day may come when we are the overwhelmed and in need of the mercy of others. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. Contra Costa County? (Is this still considered true? Sitting in a church, and attending weekly, didnt help heal me of anxiety, depression, or help me deal with grief after a death in the family. What was it like in my Patriarchal home, you ask? Velour wrote: If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. After struggling with this for years, it was like a light bulb was turned on. I communicated directly with one of his children and received confirmed that this quote was from one of them (and also received permission to post it here). I dont think so, but only God knows. But, in the case of a person that just will not repent and get help, and they refuse to own their sin, I Cor 5 is pretty clear. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. ), seems to me that enabling is not the same thing as really helping A question: [citation needed] Bang head on table. While it is your prerogative since it is your blog, there are other legitimate treatment methods that do incorporate the word and there is nothing wrong with it. tempt others into heavy drinking, act as a Pastor while not being in a fit state to do so & so on), does he actually need to be out of this environment for his & others protection? If you want to raise some new issues, go for it. In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. (We lived out in the country.) I did read your post, Daisy. That is an important element here. Some people seem to have agendas and sometimes peoples meanings get distorted and inferences get made all in the service of some apparent agenda. This is beyond shocking to me. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. Association of Related Churches First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. In time they were each restored, one after repentance and one after a time in prison. This wasnt a little bit buzzed. A man with enough of a track record to be REJECTED by the Presbyterian Church in America when he sought to have his ordination accepted there as a Teaching Elder and opted to go the micro denom route. IMHO In essence this TWW blog post was initially about questions of present organized levels of pastoral oversight & accountability within reformed churches, and of the sufficiency of the processes thereof. There are, perhaps, one or two differences between Type 1 diabetes and alcoholism. And he is correct in that drunkenness is a sin but drinking wine is not forbidden. They could look up names and addresses of mental health professionals or treatment programs in their area. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. With follow-up. At what point, under what circumstances, under what conditions, is it okay for us to remove the drunkard from the church and it not be Dark Ages practices.. hUmLSW>@"4buv @nwdK:Z!n:=YQ2!e.e?e-Ksr}}= `W* 4+Fb4zB %ta D@ulB8A aP~ZL]one_'D=HAq2} (x3`k0m\ Y ^kFS^ZU%\ Sproul Jr. can be exposed. Re Sproul, Im kind of with Jack in that its hard to have sympathy for him, because Ive seen too many other things that bother me. I am sure this gossip card is one of the factors that allowed RC Sproul Jr. to get away with what he did for long. Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. Does that mean those holding different views will be given the left boot of fellowship? But more often than not, we do one or the other of the following with such comments: . Insult where none was intended, and pastor, died December 14, 2017, Alkies drink because what... 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